bradley & hubbard brass aesthetic mirrors

greetings-

as a collector of victorian furniture i am certain that
i have followed many of the same steps other collectors
have covered. once the furniture bug is satiated, one begins
to collect the peripheral items which also belong in the
victorian home. the art of metalwork has intrigued me
for over 30 years and i am an avid collector of victorian
bronze home hardware (yes, door hardware). i have also
acquired several wonderful brass aesthetic mirrors(pics) which
can finally be attributed to bradley & hubbard from
their original u.s. patents. this all came to fruition when i recently
acquired the book "a brass menagerie - metalwork of the aesthetic
movement," by anna tobin d'ambrosio. this book is available
from lisebohm(website and ebay) and is an absolute "must have" for aesthetic brass
collectors. this book shows the same easel type
mirror pictured below with no attribution(page 70). it also pictures a
narrow mirrored sconce(attributed to b&h) and table top(page 34) which
matches the easel in design work. i hypothesized all three pieces were
made by the same designer / manufacturer. my pieces, the easel
mirror and a wider shaped sconce, do not carry any trademark
or actual patent date, but do carry the identifying marks "pat'd applied for."
using the patent search at the usgovpatent site and google patent
search i found three patents attributed to albert patitz of bradley
& hubbard showing these sconce frames (#d14619, d14272 and d14244).
i still have not found the exact easel, but i am certain it is also a bradley
and hubbard. i would also hypothesize that the large mirror
for sale in the accessory section of southhampton antiques is also
bradley & hubbard as the design is consistent with patitz designs shown in these
four items. the mirror also carries the same identifying "pat'd applied for."
if you have not tried using google patent search i highly recommend it as it is
far less cumbersome then using the us government's site and very worthwhile.
one word of warning though...the site is only as accurate as the
person who input the records. there are numerous spelling errors making
the search difficult at times. i found as many patent records under
"beadley and hibbard" as i did under "bradley and hubbard!"
stever

Steve, any idea as to the value of your piece?  I had been contemplating buying the one (narrow one matching yours) in the attached photo.  If you look hard enough, you can see an unfortunate pushbutton switch which may have necessitated damage during it's placement.

hello---

nice mirror and a match to the one pictured in the brass menagerie
book. its "frame and design" is patent #d14272. the original patent
does not show the candle holders, but yours appear to be the same
design as the book's. my mirror has a different candle holder but i feel
it is original too due to ebay auction# 310113202913. i have posted this
mirror which sold 1/13/09,  for $887.99. the price was somewhat suprising
to me as my easel was purchased for approx $300.00(1 year ago) and the wider
mirror was bought in an antique mall in jacksonville, florida for $45.00 (6 months ago -yes,
a bargain for certain). value is a difficult to place on certain items.
i bought both of my mirrors based on their superior design and
manufacture. i did not consider their maker in the equation but
as ebay suggests, bradley & hubbard may bring more money to the table.
your mirror is certainly the same quality and i would be interested
just like you. i would think 300-400.00 is fair but realize this is only
half what has just been realized in the last two weeks on ebay. the problem
with an auction is that it only establishes value of an item at the
moment it sells. all to often people get caught up in the auction
"heat" and pay far more then the rational thinker does. i am interested
in knowing if your possible mirror carries the patent date or simply
is marked "pat'd applied for?" also, have studied the mirror closely
along with the books picture and one can see that where your light button
has been installed there appears to be a large "hole" due to the flow of the
design. can't say for sure, but i'll bet a simple removal and there will
be no evidence of the switch or its' previous placement. let me
know how it turns out!
stever

Hey stever,

Now here’s a post after my heart, my wife and I love those mirrors. Like you, after we filled our house with furniture, we now buy nice accessories to go with it. We also have a thing for brass doorknobs and have replaced all the bakelite ones that the house came with, with victorian ones. OK they don’t match on a door to door basis but we love them. I can’t afford Russell and Erwin aesthetic doorknobs but we have a nice mix of eastlake etc.

The first brass mirror sconce we bought was the Bradley and Hubbard one in the “Brass Menagerie” book. I had no knowledge of the book and this was about a year and a half ago. It was $200 at an antique flea market. It’s missing its candle cups, but is in great condition with a great patina on it. Candle cups, being removable, are often lost and I don’t consider that a serious defect. The sconce looks fine without them and replacement ones are available from almost any manufacturer of chandelier parts. I just stuck candles in it and it looks fine. I agree with Stever that the large hole where the switch is probably did not damage the Sconce, John, but was it drilled to accept the wiring for the sockets? These sconces are plentiful enough to be choosey, but if you want it electrified and the price is right, I say go for it. My Bradley and Hubbard sconce is stamped on the back “PAT APLD FOR 590”

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/IMG_1794.jpg

My next sconce is very much like Stevers “easel” one only it is adapted for a wall hanger. The mirror part is the same and it has the same copper finish. Mine is copper plated iron. On the back is stamped “PAT APLD and what looks like “1    3”, its a rather hard to decipher stamping so perhaps a number or a letter is missing? I paid about $150.00  for it. Candle cups are also missing on this one.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/IMG_1787.jpg

Here is a detail of the sconce part which differs it from Stevers easel version.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/IMG_1781.jpg

Next one i have a pair of. They are not marked but look very much like the Bradley and Hubbard one. These were $350 for the pair and they are a pair. They have exactly the same patina and age look and I’m convinced they were always a pair and not an assembled set of 2. There are no discernable markings on them.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/IMG_1791.jpg

Lastly I have this lovely one that is brass plating over iron that i bought for my wife as a birthday gift. It is unmarked as far as i can tell. The glass ‘jewels’ in it are not as bright as they look in the picture, that is from the flash. I paid $175.00 for it. It has no seperate candle cups, the candle holders unscrew for cleaning.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/aestheticsconce.jpg

Beyond loving these things, I know very little about them, but I’ll tell you what I think, take it with a grain of salt, but I have looked at and examined many over the years both recently and a long time ago so this is what i think:

There are many many of these, much more in a vaguely Rococo look than Aesthetic, but many nonetheless. They must have been extremely popular before the wide use of electricity and so perfect for a gentleman to straighten his hat or a lady to fix her hair with. They do look splendid with the candles lit and cast a wonderful warm glow about the home.

Many are solid brass and beautiful castings. Some are brass or copper over iron. It seems that the some of the same companies made them either way and the solid brass ones may have been more expensive than plated ones. Perhaps they were made solid at first then available as plated to lower manufacturing costs?

Most, if not all originals had a thin brass plate on the back to cover and protect the mirror. Later ones, probably 20th century versions had the mirror backing held on by a series of tabs with screws, much like a lot of modern picture frames. There are repros on some of them, the 2 dolphins and old bearded man ones have certainly been reproduced at one time and often the castings are very rough, nowhere near as sharp and detailed as the originals. I have never seen a repro Aesthetic one, only the more common rococo ones.

I have seen a lot of the different Aesthetic ones with the same mirror and a different sconce on them. I have counted at least 4 different candle sconces on the B&H one alone. I am convinced that all these sconces are original, just variations that the companies offered, perhaps they mixed and matched.

Candle cups, being removable, are often absent from the sconces.

I am also of the opinion that the Brass menagerie exhibition / catalog has drivin the prices of all Aesthetic brass up considerably, particularly if the piece is actually pictured in the catalog.

On a further note on brass sconces, there are non mirrored ones available. I don't know if these came on dressers, hall racks, mirrors etc, but I have seen them on and off furniture. Here's an Eastlake / Aesthetic one we have of a pair on either side of one of our dressers.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/IMG_1797.jpg

Great collection, Zeke.  After seeing the great pieces you have it makes me want to collect those too...

I need to go back and see what the price is for the one that I pictured.  I don't think it was a fair price by any means.

Hey John,

Many thanks, Helen and I love these things, although she always kids me "how many mirrors do we need!"

The trick is to find them in shops where the seller really doesn't know what they are. If you are at an antique show and you see one at a dealer booth that also has transfer wear, aesthetic silverplate, ebonized furniture, a Bradley and Hubbard rocketship table and a copy of the Brass Menagerie book laying on the table, the mirror sconce will cost you about $1000.00  ::)

hello zeke---

nice to know there are other "metal" collectors out there!
i appreciate the time and effort you took in posting the many
pictures and information regarding their purchase. i especially
liked the frame which is much like the easel i own. interestingly
enough the candle arms are certainly the same design
as the mirrored sconce with prisms. i was very surprised
when you stated it was iron with brass finish
as i have not seen any yet that are cast iron. i suppose this
only makes sense as by using iron and reducing metal costs a
new group of buyers were gained in the marketplace. door hardware
is made in similar lines.

agree totally with your comments regarding the book and its
affect on prices. the book is amazing though and certainly one of the
best on showing aesthetic type pieces. i think they missed
some of the better door hardware though. clearly christesen's
lady and parasol design series is spectacular, but some of norwalk's
hardware is just as good or better. if you have not seen this
hardware manufacturer let me know and i'll post a few pics.

i do have one question ---- is the bar between the candle sconces
which provides support a smooth one or is it designed?
thanks again-
stever

Ran into this marked B&H sconce this weekend but didn't buy it.  I think it was nearly 2 ft tall.

Hey Stever,

I’ve been away 2 weeks and not ignoring your question! If you mean the bar on the sconce that is the same as your easel sconce, it’s just a smooth brass tube with a double threaded bolt running through it with the flowers acting as nuts to hold it together. Here’s a pic:

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/IMG_1798.jpg

I totally agree with you on the Brass Menagerie book, it’s really amazing and the only book available on Victorian Aesthetic brass. It represents only a few peoples collections though and a huge coffee table book would be most welcome. There is also the plethora of Victorian Brass that is Rococo and Renaissance that would not be considered a part of the Aesthetic movement, but nonetheless plays as important a role in the 19th century American metal objects story. Bradley and Hubbard metal objects alone would cover a voluminous tome. Door hardware is yet another huge part of the picture, what wonderful brass doorknobs exist in all the Victorian styles. All these things go so well and compliment a collection of Victorian furniture.

John,

The Bradley and Hubbard one you have pictured is really nice! I have seen this one as well as the one with 2 dolphins on top many times but more often than not later (reproductions?). Many of the sconces with the bearded man (Atlas?, Pan? The devil?) are not as intricate as the B&H one you have pictured. Some are such bad castings even a novice would notice them as a repro. Notice the candle holder on this is the same one as on some of the Aesthetic Sconces. I really feel they just mixed and matched the candle sconces to the mirrors and there exist many variants.

I found a rather interesting one last saturday in a shop that my wife just happened to buy me for Valentines day. It’s really much more arts and crafts than Victorian and there are no candle sconces, just a mirror. It’s an easel sconce and the easel itself is very Eastlake / Aesthetic. Construction is the same as my Aesthetic ones with a metal plate holding the beveled mirror in. It’s cast iron with a silver wash that is much worn and has a great patina. The weathered fence with broken hinges and a Lizard could very well be a Victorian motif? In any event, I’m going to remove the easel and hang it in the downstairs bathroom where we have a reptile and amphibian theme. Hey, collecting this stuff is all about having some fun!  ;D

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/IMG_1802.jpg

Found another nice aesthetic mirror sconce at the King of Prussia show in PA last weekend.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/IMG_1827.jpg

Each one we find (this is number 7 in our house) my wife says this is the last one! However the brass had such a lovely patina and this one was in 100% original condition that we couldn't pass it up for $175. I have seen this one several times with a full bodied cherub instead of just the head. There seems to be enough variety in these that a collectors guide is surely needed. They do make an interesting collecting specialty, but this is absolutely the last one we buy... until the next one!  ;)

zeke---

one thing i have learned is that your garage can hold about
as much as your home! that's what i do when my wife
says no more.....! my garage is filled with many special
finds which have not made it in my house yet.  i have also
started to put architectural items in my backyard. i bought
a nice marble statue of a greek woman at a yard sale
not long ago. figured it was a shoe in for the stairwell landing.
it is now proudly sitting the yard.

another fine mirror.

stever

Hey Stever,

Great statue, it’s gorgeous! I love the folds in her robe as well as everything else about it! So is it permanently in your yard or will it someday make it to the stairwell? In any case it would look great anywhere!

I have a funny story that kind of relates to the statue and you placing it outside. It must have been 20 years ago when we were more or less new home owners looking for antiques. We found a victorian cast iron fern bench at a contents sale. It was sitting on a porch and had some rust on it. It was the end of the sale on a Sunday and we negotiated the price from $75 down to $35. I had to go home and get a hacksaw to get the bolts out of it as they would not turn and the damn thing was way too heavy to move but we got it home and I reassembled it with new bolts and I repainted with rustoleum white and put it in the yard. Sometime later we saw the same bench at an antique show for considerably more than we paid for it! We brought it in the house and it stayed in the bedroom for years. Fortunately, we’re older now and came to our senses and its now back outside where it belongs.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/Fernbench.jpg

Stever, you mentioned earlier in this thread about your Victorian door hardware, any chance you can take some pics and post it here, some good examples? I’m just in love with Victorian Brass.

Zeke

I saw a nice brass mirror on ebay and it made me think of Stever's & Zeke's post here on mirrors. Here it is: http://tinyurl.com/cl54y6  Nice design & details though the finish looks like it might not be perfect, hard to tell from the pics @ the listing. Priced @ $275 - seller also has a 30 day layaway plan. woodwright

Thats a nice one Woodwright, actually the first Renaissance one I've seen. Thanks for posting it! It's great to see examples of Victorian brass and these objects were meant to compliment the furniture.

I found a brass book rack that is identical to the one in the "Brass Menagerie" book at a flea market on a table filled with various junk.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/Bookrack.jpg

The reason I'm posting this is I get the idea that Aesthetic taste Victorian brass items are a lot more common than one might think. Most of this stuff was just utilitarian objects and not high end product.

Keeping with the brass theme of this thread I found a kind of nice Eastlake / Aesthetic fire screen recently. There was no fabric on it, but it was in remarkably good condition with no missing elements and it was cheap. The few I've seen of these over the years were either broken or had parts missing. These screw together and the little finials and spindles have a tendency to get lost, even though they are made of metal, they seem surprisingly fragile.

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/Firescreen.jpg

By chance, we found a nice piece of fabric in a local specialty shop. It's a design by Charles Voysey from 1897 and the leaf pattern in the fabric picked up very nicely on the leaf pattern stamped into the brass frame. The fabric leans more towards arts and crafts, but I thought the birds fit in nicely with the Aesthetic movement theme of the fire screen and the fabric is more or less contemporaneous to the fire screen. I got some canvas stretchers, spray painted them with rustoleum brushed brass finish, stretched the fabric over it and attached it to the back. There were small existing holes punched through it so a few tiny brass screws hold the frame with fabric on it.  I think it came out rather nice.  :D

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/IMG_1963.jpg

hello!

this is another great find.... you must be a hunter and gatherer!
in all seriousness, a very nice piece and the fabric choice compliments
it nicely.

stever

I love posting flea market finds!

Found this nice pair of aesthetic movement candlesticks at a flea market today for $30. While not the greatest ones I've ever seen they are a real nice form and the crystals may even be original? Great patina too! Looking for treasures is just so much fun and i love the tactile experience of actually walking around in the sunshine and picking objects up and examining them as opposed to just sitting in a chair and searching ebay. Bargains are still out there!

http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/IMG_2331.jpg

Hi Zeke--

Great find! The crystals appear to be the same ones
on the B&H mirror I have. I am guessing it may be a
common type, but it could also mean they are original.

On another note---the Brass Menagerie book is on ebay
at this time for a cheap buy it now price if anyone
is interested. I have actually owned two of the books
as I gave one as a gift recently. I paid significantly
more for this book so I consider the 29.95 price a bargain.

as follows:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Book-American-Brass-of-the-Aesthetic-Movement_W0QQitemZ350248719686QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518c735546&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

Stever

Thanks for the heads up on the book Stever. I grabbed it based on yours and Zeke's recommendation of it. I've never seen a copy of it in person - but have been curious to see it. I look forward to it's arrival. Maybe it will turn me into a brass hound like you and Zeke.

Woodwright-

Good! I thought a Rare Victorian follower would benefit from this
book and I am delighted it was you. I believe you will be
very pleased with the purchase. It is a great "read!"

Stever

Zeke- (and all)

Here is another B & H mirror that found me at a local
antiques store a week ago. It is not "aesthetic eastlake,"
but nonetheless worthy of rescue! Brass plate over iron
and clearly marked with the B&H trademark. Thought you might
enjoy.

Woodwright-
did you get the Brass Menagerie book yet?

Stever

Hey Stever, Yes, the book "A Brass Menagerie" arrived. Very nice book - lots of pictures of beautiful Victorian brasswork and it is an interesting read. It's easy to see how one could be drawn to collect it. Thanks for the recommendation and the heads up on the book. I too recommend it to lovers of victoriana. For anyone else interested in it there are (2) other copies for sale for cover price ($29.95 + Shipping - about $35.00 total. Go to bookfinder.com and search for it to see the sellers offering it)  woodwright

The book is really great and the pics and text make for very nice reading. I like this review of it, it's very enlightening.

http://www.americandecorativeart.com/internalpages/exhibitions/brass/index.html

Cool Mirror Stever! Original marked Bradley and Hubbard makes it even better.

I was in this weird antique shop this weekend off the beaten path. On a table was a 1893 Russell and Irwin catalog! It was like 5 inches thick, hardcover and like every page was illustrated. I asked for a price and the lady told me it was a reference book they use and it was just left out. Oh well! The inside cover had a price pencilled in, $3! I had fun looking at it though!

Zeke, offer her $100 or something, maybe she'll budge and sell it.

Ya know John,

I may just do that! Its so darn big and such a great reference. It's well used and the pages have tattered edges but it looks more or less intact and complete. My question is who did they give out a thousand page catalog to? Hardware stores perhaps? It looks like it cost a ton of money to produce! It's HUGE!

$100 sounds like it would be a steal for a book like that - especially to a hardware hound like Zeke (or Stever). Where would you find another one? I'm sure you could get your money back on it anytime on ebay - maybe make a little on a good day. Money can be a big motivator - I'd give it a serious shot - sounds like a cool catalog. You'll have to let us know if you get it - maybe post a few pics. woodwright

Yes, the book for $100 would be a good buy.
Most hardware books which carry the actual
manufacturer name were thick renditions. Catalogues
were expensive to produce in their day. Often,
one will find the jobber catalogue---one which is much
smaller in size. The R&E catalogue Zeke has found
should show the "heart knob / plate / suite " which
was posted in the hardware blog. It is a beautiful
book and i encourage you to persue it.

Now--- if anyone has or knows of a 1876 corbin catalogue
I'd appreciate an email.

Stever

Greetings-
Update on Aesthetic brass/bronze/cast iron mirrors and their values:

Two different nice aesthetic mirrors sold on ebay today. The first-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110443119406&ssPageName=S

sold at $355.00. It is a fine representation, except that it was missing it's candle
holders and bracket assembly. I was frankly suprised at its hammer price due to the
missing items. The second-

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300355829850&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123

sold at $199. and I believe it was a bargain. The pics were poor and the description
did not state the word "aesthetic." This mirror is clearly Bradley and Hubbard (from patent pics)
and matches the easel in my collection(also in Brass Menagerie book). It is also
the mate to Zeke's brass plated iron mirror shown earlier in this post.

There are also several other bronze B&H mirrors currently on ebay, but these two
most closely match the aesthetic designs seen earlier in this blog.

I put up an antique brass search "shopping" page at the bottom.  It's a catch-call to some degree since some people don't know they have B&H or don't know it's Aesthetic style, so there will be some less desirable ones in there due to the broader search.

http://rarevictorian.com/shop-for-victorian-antiques

Here's another Aesthetic B&H Mirror - Says painted cast Iron (not Brass) - priced @ $245 - also missing it's candle holder.  http://www.thebrassknob.com/detail.cfm?ID=1845&category=1

Update again---

Here is another identical B&H aesthetic mirror which
just sold on ebay for an incredible cheap price of $49.00
plus shipping. I cannot fathom why except the description
was not "helpful" to those searching and the pics
were poor. It too is bronze/brass and is a match to the last
one i commented on. It will be interesting if the patinas
from the two will match.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310188369273&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123

Stever

Hi everybody,

I'm new to this forum, and was amazed and pleased to see this thread on B&H and other mirrors/sconces. I collect aesthetic stuff generally, and I'm particularly addicted to these candle sconces. I pretty much have the “Brass Menagerie” catalogue memorized by now, but I am well aware that it covers only a small part of the "art brass" produced during the Aesthetic Period.

I want to thank stever for getting the ball rolling, and for pointing the way to those three Bradley & Hubbard/Patitz design patents online, because even though some of these sconces have patent dates and numbers on the back, until now I just couldn’t seem to track them down.

I hope I can add a few bits of information to what others have posted.

The “Brass Menagerie” catalogue cites the earliest frame patented by Patitz for B&H (d14244), and describes it as an oblong rectangle in shape.

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/aesthete_2010/BH_D14244.jpg

I’ve only seen one physical example of this shape, in an antique store on 25th Street in NYC about five years ago, and that was part of an elaborate dressing mirror with candle-holders and the coolest bird-claw feet — a stunner. It was priced at an arm and a leg, but I still regret not buying it.

The slightly narrower upright rectangle frame (d14619) must also be pretty uncommon, since in addition to the one I snagged on eBay recently, the one posted by stever is the only example I have seen. Fortunately I didn’t pay anywhere near the price set in the auction stever cites!

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/aesthete_2010/BH_D14619.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/aesthete_2010/IMG_0287Resized.jpg

The very narrow reworking of that frame design (d14272) must have been a best-seller for B&H. It comes up pretty often on eBay, both in solid brass and in brass-plated cast-iron.

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/aesthete_2010/BH_D14272.jpg
http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/aesthete_2010/IMG_0289Resized.jpg

I’ve got a pair of these in solid brass. I try to avoid brass-plated examples of anything since the finish is so often dicey, but they can be valuable evidence of attribution in these sconces, because for some reason the cast-iron versions are generally signed “B&H”, where the solid brass versions of the same model often are not.

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/aesthete_2010/b644_1.jpg

That’s why I’m convinced that this sconce:

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/aesthete_2010/BH_Sconce_1.jpg

is B&H, even though the “Brass Menagerie” catalogue will only go so far as to say “attributed:” although my solid brass version is unmarked, brass-plated cast-iron versions I’ve seen on eBay are all signed B&H. This was the first aesthetic sconce I ever bought, by the way, and it remains my favorite. 

But aside from the well-documented B&H examples almost all the sconces and mirrors I own are unmarked, and unattributed, and I’d welcome any information on them from this group.

This one is similar to a sconce illustrated in the “Brass Menagerie” catalogue (no. 57); the candle-holder assembly is identical to those found on some of my B&H examples, but I suspect that these may have been manufactured by some third party, and not unique to B&H.

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/aesthete_2010/Unknown_Sconce_1.jpg

I've never seen another example quite like this sconce, although some of the tracery elements are similar in design to the “jewelled” sconce illustrated by Zeke (http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j285/zekenstein/aestheticsconce.jpg).

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/aesthete_2010/Unknown_Sconce_2.jpg

And then there's this mirror, a version of which appears in the "Brass Menagerie" catalogue as a candle sconce.

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz52/aesthete_2010/IMG_0098.jpg

I think I’ve probably taken up enough of your time, but I do appreciate the opportunity to share this particular obsession. I’ll save the Aesthetic Period fern stands, lamps, clocks, candlesticks, letter-openers and china for future posts …!

Eric

Hi Eric ~

Welcome to rare victorian. I enjoyed reading
your recent post along with studying your pictures.
This post/thread is a most actively followed discussion
as evidenced by the whooping 4500 plus "hits"
it has received. There has to be alot of collectors
reading that have not yet commented. I hope new
info will continue to come forward - thanks for writing.
Aesthetic Victorian pieces are certainly my love too,
although I collect many other things for the 1865-1895
period. It appears you have a very fine collection.
Are you east or west coast based?

I was interested to see your comment regarding your
first acquisition and believing it to be B&H. I have seen this
mirror in both cast iron and bronze, but had not seen
any markings disclosing manufacture. I have hypothisized
it was possibly made by the Meridian company. this was
based on similar design characteristics and metallic
composition. Meridian company items have a richer/
warmer tone then B&H pieces which seem to have a much redder
brass color when shined(something I am fundamentally opposed
to). Of course I have no proof, but definitely alot of opinion ;)

Hope to see more of your posts soon!

Thanks, Stever, for the warm welcome. I too hope others will come forward with pictures and stories. There's obviously a huge amount of Aesthetic brass and other items out there, only a tiny fraction of which is represented in The Brass Menagerie and other catalogues. I'm on the East Coast (NYC); recently I visited another manic collector of Aesthetic stuff in the city and was fascinated to see that although we were both clearly focused on the same types of objects -- lamps, sconces, china -- there was very little duplication of items between his collection and mine.

You mention a philosophical opposition to polishing, which I certainly respect, but it's something I go back and forth on, and I wonder what others think. I'm consistently inconsistent: if something comes recently polished but unlacquered, I will generally not re-polish, but cheerfully let it go dull; if it's been recently (and competently) polished and lacquered, I'm happy to leave it that way, because these things really pop when they're shiny; I usually won't touch anything retaining even a trace of original finish, but I have been known to polish (and even lacquer -- incompentently) an item with a really degraded surface. I've only ever had one piece -- a high-end Pierre Guerin oil lamp -- professionally polished and lacquered, and I'm glad I did it, and still feel that it was worth the expense in that case.

Hello Eric ~

Good to hear from you again. I am sorry to hear
we are so far apart as I would like to "visit" too!

On the "cleaning" subject..... When I was a younger
collector I liked the brilliant polished look and unfortunately
ruined some pieces using rather harsh cleaning methods
to make them shine. As I continued to collect and began to
buy "better" things, I realized that if the item were in
original condition then I needed to leave it this way
except for cleaning. Cleaning can be easily accomplished
using non-invasive methods which enhance the piece.
Cleaning accomplishes what i was looking for---clean
and bright, but no damage to the metal design.
I have enclosed a picture of some aesthetic bird pulls. the "bright"
pieces have been cleaned(not polished) and are as close
to original condition/factory finish as can be accomplished.
if one tried to polish these pulls the definition would
be lost in a hurry and in my opinion their value would
be greatly decreased. Of course the problem becomes
much greater when you acquire an already over-polished
piece but this can be changed too with alot of patience.

steve

Hi Folks,

To me, the beautiful creations of the Aesthetic Movement were the artistic high point of the Victorian era. Although some Aesthetic motifs tended to get a little monotonous and repetitive in mass production pieces, the best Aesthetic pieces never lacked for charm or creativity. Steve, these pulls are fantastic! I recently bought some badly tarnished C. 1880 lion's head pulls for a bookcase lacking its originals and was able to get them nicely cleaned without the slightest damage. A friend of mine restores antique clocks and he uses an ammonia based and detergent cleaner for clock gears and other brass parts. The cleaner is called Time-savers clock cleaning solution and is mixed in a ratio of one pint cleaner to one gallon water. (sold by the Mile-High clock Co. of Denver 303-469-1220, according to my clock restorer friend.)Best to use it outdoors or in a well-ventilated area as the ammonia fumes are potent. Pieces placed in the solution will shed corrosion in an hour or two. I removed the pulls from the solution and lightly brushed them with a small brass bristled brush. A few needed a second soaking but all came out clean and ready to lacquer.

There was a nice Aesthetic gas chandelier with a Longwy ceramic center and completely original and untouched that recently sold on e-Bay for $750. ( I could post a photo or two if allowed) Some Bradley and Hubbard sunflower motif fire place andirons are for sale at the buy it now price of $1250: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230453010619&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT (seems a bit over-priced to me)

I also saw a frame with an unusual Aesthetic design which made me wonder if it originally had a mirror? (see image) It sold for $300. Anyhow, I never grow tired of discussing anything pertaining to the Aesthetic Movement on either side of the Atlantic, so it is nice to become acquainted with fellow admirers of this rare style. However, we should always beware of Philistines!

Just wanted to show a "before & after" photo showing the cleaning effect of the aforementioned brass clock parts cleaning solution. These stamped Lion's Head drawer pulls (wish the online seller had mentioned they were stamped rather than cast) were very corroded and the fine details were obscured. Notice after clock cleaning soultion cleaning they are ready for lacquer coating with some additional minimal polishing. I actually use water-based Polyurethane (Minwax) rather than lacquer to coat brass pieces as I find it is far more durable than lacquer in high use applications like drawer pulls and the finish seems to be just as clear when dried. My 1880's front entry door hardware has withstood almost a decade of use with this coating and has not tarnished yet. I think this might be applicable to any antique brass piece although I readily understand the importance of preserving original surfaces and patinas in some cases. In this instance, these pulls are going on a Victorian bookcase that has already been refinished in the past and has had it's original hardware replaced, so it's not a museum piece.

Thanks, Vintrest, for the information about this cleaning solution -- I've got an unusual brass fern stand that would benefit from some kind of cleaning, and I gather this is non-abrasive. How do you apply your polyurethane coating? My problem is obviously not the lacquer but my application technique: no matter how brilliant the surface, I always end up dulling it -- possibly I should just leave this to professionals! 

I was the winner of the aesthetic frame. I thought it was one of the most striking things of its kind I had ever seen on eBay, and had to go for it. I ended up bidding more than I should have, I suppose -- I hadn't reckoned with the fanatic community of frame collectors, they really turned up the heat. It's incidents like this that make me realize what a relatively small group we are, and how focused in our interests. Fortunately for my pocketbook, this often puts me under the radar in a forum like eBay; but when aesthetic design overlaps with a popular format (like picture frames) or a collectible firm (like Royal Worcester), that's when things get hairy!

Aesthete,

Now I feel a bit embarassed in posting the photo of a frame you own. My apologies. I do not regularly engage in plagiarism; but as you noted, this frame was really special and distinctive enough to go on the cover of a book about the Aesthetic Movement or some major aspect of it. At least I do not feel even more guilt as I did not bid on it myself. Any clues as to who might have designed it? I suspect a major designer either American or British was behind it. On a personal level, I'd appreciate seeing it reproduced in brass or made in a larger size with a mirror. I'm pleased to learn it is in the good hands of someone who understands and appreciates its significance. From a design standpoint, I feel it is one of the better Aesthetic Movement pieces of its kind to appear on the market.

Now... about the brass clock parts cleaning solution. It is completely non-abrasive and does not eat into the metal. The liquid cleaner is sold in gallons and is mixed at the ratio of one pint cleaner to one gallon of water. I asked about the water-did it need to be distilled? I was told plain tap water works fine. The brass part or parts are immersed in the solution and need to be covered completely for the cleaner solution to work. I suspect that those who might have an ultra-sonic parts cleaning bath could do the job quicker and even more effectively. The concentrated cleaner is non-flammable but it contains a fairly high concentration of Ammonia and the smell is strong. Hence my advice to use it outdoors or in a well-ventilated area. My clock restorer friend gave me a stainless steel container to use with a good fitting lid to contain the fumes and prevent evaporation. The efficacy of the cleaner was proven to me after successfully cleaning 10 drawer pulls. Since the solution still seemed potent, I dropped in some heavily paint encrusted cast bronze (entry, room, and pocket) door hardware made by Sargent & Co. and managed to get about a dozen pieces cleaned today. Some more are soaking over-night. I had salvaged these fine pieces over a decade ago from a fire-damaged historic home built in the the early 1900's, prior to its demolition. I'd like some information about the hardware, but this is not the thread to ask about that. As for the polyurethane, I usually brush it on the piece and then check for any runs. One could also dip it in water based poly but any excess runs would need to be brushed up. Best to pre-clean the piece with lacquer thinner or acetone (both highly flammable!) before applying the poly coating. Handle with cotton gloves or towels to not leave any fingerprints or oils. Poly coverage should be thorough so no air reaches the surface to prevent tarnishing.  Two thin coats might work better than one thick coat.
Good luck with your project.

By the way, the "Vintrest" is from my business name, Vintage-Restorations. Otherwise, I prefer to be called John or "hey you", or whatever. (so long as it's nice)
John

Hey John,

Thanks for all this info, I'll give the cleaner a try. No need to be embarassed about the frame, I was frankly tickled to find that another aesthete had seen it, and been similarly smitten. It has pride of place on an endtable, framing an 1880s japonesque greeting card. No, there's no mark of any kind. The original backing board is present, and this has holes where the easel once attached. It's in remarkably good condition, no damage (other than the missing easel) or abrasion anywhere. Let's just hope that the cats leave it alone ... 

Eric

Hello John & Eric....and all others!

Couple of comments on the last few posts. I saw the aesthetic 3 arm chandelier and
thought it went for a bargain at approx 750.00. I never see this type of thing in my area
for this kind of price. I missed the frame--was it wood with gilded finish or brass?

The cleaner? I know it works as I have used ammonia before. Common household sudsy ammonia is the only chemical I have found which will remove burn/fire stains. I do not use it
normally as it removes all patina. I  prefer Arm & Hammer's super washing soda as it is cheap, it removes all grime and paint, it will pour down your sink (it is a simple laundry
powder form booster), it has no smell and you can put your hands in the solution without worrying about your fingers falling off. It works incredibly well and I highly recommend it.
Only use a brass bristle brush in cleaning as a steel brush will leave alot of damaging scratches. Ammonia is deadly if you breathe a whiff.

Who is going to buy this beautiful aesthetic easeled mirror?

http://cgi.ebay.com/BEST-ANTIQUE-AESTHETIC-BRASS-TABLE-CHEVEL-SWIVEL-MIRROR_W0QQitemZ360251100669QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAntiques_Decorative_Arts?hash=item53e0a38dfd

Finally, a couple of eye candy items. Do either of you collect brass match safes?

Stever

Hi Steve,

First, about the clock parts cleaner, yes it does remove all surface patina and yes, it does have a strong ammonia odor hence my advice to use it outdoors or in a very well ventilated area. Thanks for the information regarding Arm & Hammer's product; I'll have to give it a try.

Now, about the chandelier you mentioned. There was one c. 1880 sold about two weeks ago made out of brass with a Longwy ceramic center piece listed as "Satsuma" then corrected by the seller after being informed of the Longwy provenance. Otherwise, it was a classic Aesthetic Style brass gaslight fixture (see image) and given it was untouched and original, probably easily worth the $750 it sold for. It did have some minor dings but none was a real problem.

In answer to your other question, no I do not collect match safes, but after seeing the two outstanding examples you posted, I'm tempted to.  I'm almost dumbfounded that one was a hardware store give-away. I wonder what the monogrammed "M" on the other one stood for? (matches?) Thank you very much for sharing, I love Victorian brass pieces, especially Aesthetic Movement style items.

Stever,

Re: Aesthetic Cheval Mirror...very nice!! I'm surprised it is not maker-marked in some way. After buying a bookcase online and picking it up in Sacramento, CA and hauling it back to the Dallas-Ft. Worth, TX area a couple of weeks ago, I'm pretty low on discretionary funds these days, but I can "window shop" and certainly appreciate pieces like this mirror that are coming to the market right now. I would suggest to the cheval mirror buyer to carefully remove the mirror back cover and see what is stamped on the back of the mirror. (if there is a stamp or date) It could give a clue as to age and maker. As for cleaning a piece like this, I'd have to think a while about this one...maybe some very light cleaning but certainly not bringing it to a new-like, high shine. Of course, there is a perpetual debate in the antiques world about saving original surfaces and patinas. Most museum pieces have been thoroughly worked over by professional conservators and although the original surface may be intact, a lot of cleaning and touch up is evident. No ultra high-dollar piece should ever be carelessly stripped, sanded, re-stained and refinished, but cleaning and touch up by a professional conservator is appropriate. Where the conservator's touch gives way to the refinishers is a matter of personal taste and budget but most rarer pieces are better off left untouched. Despite devoting many years to professional refinishing and restoration experience, I have several pieces I've never touched and never will.

The pictures of frames got me to thinking about one that my wife found at an antique shop for $50.  I presume that it is "real" and not a more recent product of India.  My guess is 1880-ish aesthetic movement.  There are a lot of little stars . . . kind of a "Turkish" or Moorish design on top of a table.  Has anybody come across something similar?  I'm not too familiar with metal items.

- Jason

Jason,

What a beautiful brass frame! The evident quality is too high for it to be an Asian or Indian knock-off. It seems to be more of a "Moorish" accessory for the "Turkish Corner" fad which seemed to have originated as part of the Victorian's fascination and appreciation for the exotic and far-away during the late 1870's, continuing until at least the early 1900's. I've been carefully working on assembling the accessories for such a period "Turkish Corner" installation myself for about a year but it's a slow process and the right accessories only appear once in a while. I did buy a Morrocan corner cabinet on e-Bay a couple of months ago (for $130, see below) and have lost bids on a couple of similar items. An ideal subject matter albeit damaged c. 1880's painting (see below) was for sale a few weeks ago that would have been perfect but I was outbid. (went for a little over $200) Louis Comfort Tiffany who had visited North Africa, had created an "orientalist" or "Turkish" space in his own early 1880's apartment with Arabian tribal items and weapons used for decorative effect. I have been long-looking for more detailed documentation and information about Victorian era "Turkish Corners" but have found very little information about it. These exotic "corners" do seem to have been extremely popular during the 1890's, especially in Queen Anne style homes. These tucked-away spaces were often used by the gentleman of the house who after coming home from work, donned a smoking jacket, a Turkish fez, and Turkish slippers to sit down in an overstuffed chair, enjoy a smoke, some port wine, and read the daily newspaper. Some of these "corners" featured water pipes stuffed Ottamans, with appropriate Persian rugs and inlaid tables as well as Morrocan brass lamps. I have a early 1880's bound Harpers magazine with an article about the fad of Hashish smokers in NYC. (off-topic, I know, but indicative that some Victorians took these imported "cultural" practices a bit too literally) Of course, the American fascination with the cultures of the ancient Middle East goes back much further-an example is painter Frederick Church's 1870's "Persian" style home above the Hudson called Olana. (now a major tourist site and museum) More Olana info: http://www.olana.org/learn_the_house.php

Quote from: vintrest
Of course, the American fascination with the cultures of the ancient Middle East goes back much further-an example is painter Frederick Church's 1840's "Persian" style home above the Hudson called Olana. (now a major tourist site and museum)

IIRC, Olana was built beginning in 1870, with the last modification around 1890... "1840's" is a typo, no?

Awesome corner cabinet.  I have been looking for a tambour table in that style...just not looking very hard. 

I have also been gathering up "Turkish Revival" (as if there was some sort of precursor Turkish movement) furniture.  My long-range plan was simply to do the living room in the Turkish / exotic style, but most of the pieces are tucked away in the parlor while the children grow up (our son turned 3...and we are expecting a 2nd son around May 15). 

The two red-ish chairs in the living room are somewhat reminiscent of the Schren-something (I can't spell the name, but I think that they were in NY) items in the Dubrow book, but they need new upholstery...probably 1880s?  The corner chair was an ebay find several years ago (~$150 or less, also probably 1880s?).  The settee came out of a barn in PA (~$220, and then another $2k for upholstery - I'd guess it to be 1885-1890ish) back in 2003, I think.  The rocker (best guess is ca. 1895) came out of a garage in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan...$99 on ebay, plus ~$800 for new upholstery to replace the original "oil cloth" (it was shot).  The Anglo-Japanese ladies desk with curio top was another ebay find ($500 - maybe 1880-ish?).  That little desk has a pull-out writing surface that is very well hidden.  I like the Moorish arches on it and I had some birthday money saved up.  The picture frame is a nice match. 

I'm curious if anybody has a better guess as to the dates of these pieces. 

What other Aesthetic / Turkish / Exotic stuff do you have?

- Jason

Jason, Cheryl,

I spent nearly two hours typing up a response to recent postings yesterday, accidentally hit the "Alt" key instead of space bar, and lost it all in a nano-second. Guess that will teach me to be so "wordy", eh?

Cheryl, I've corrected the Olana date and posted a link to more info. 1840 would have found artist Frederick Church around age 14! Thanks...
Jason, the fad of Victorian era "Turkish Corners" is a topic unto itself so I believe it would be appropriate to start a new topic thread devoted to that theme. (what connection would it have with Bradley & Hubbard brass Aesthetic mirrors?) I'll try to do that after replying to your post. First the two red chairs...they would look perfect in a Turkish Corner setting and I do believe they date from the 1880's from what I can see. Ditto for the corner chair. The settee is very interesting and the upholstery work fabulous but I cannot tell enough about it to date it. White and blue would have been a rare choice originally but is used to good effect in the recent upholstery work. The rocker is nice with an excellent period-like upholstery choice. Now, as for the desk-curio I would not call it "Anglo-Japanese". It does have some incised carvings and "Eastlake" pulls but the Moorish arches are so distinctive that I think you could safely call it "Moorish Revival" or to be safe, "Eclectic". Needless to say, it would be very appropriate in any room with a "Moorish" or Middle-Eastern exotic flavor. More about that in a new topic thread. Glad you liked the corner cabinet too. Tambour tables of that type are not too rare.

I was a bit reluctant to post the pics of upholstered furniture here, but the thread seemed to be a bit dynamic.

The settee was originally blue & gold.  I didn't have much luck finding a match for the gold, so we went with a "parchment" sort of white. 

There are some "before" pics in the forum here -->  http://victorianforum.com/index.php?topic=24.0

I'm keen to read up more on Turkish corners (date first mentioned, etc). 

Thank you!

- Jason

Jason and others who might have an interest,

I've posted a new topic in the General Discussion section of the forum about Turkish Corners and related Middle-Eastern Exotica. Since I truly want to learn as much as I can about this (mainly) 1890's decorating fad or cultural phenonmenon, any input, photos, or related published sources would be greatly appreciated. As far as I know, there are no recent books devoted to the topic and given the limited audience for such late Victorian esoterica, I could only see an academician taking on such a project perhaps for a MA or PHD type project. The fact that mainstream domestic manufacturers in the period from 1875 to the late 1890's incorporated Moorish decorative motifs into furniture designs show that it had some popularity. I'd like to find some period ads for Moorish or Turkish "smoking room accessories". (Fezes, smoking jackets, Turkish slippers, Turbans, Hookahs, Morrocan Brassware, Prints, bric-a-brac, etc.) Thanks for linking to a "before" on your blue and white settee. From the legs and basic form, I would date it to the 1870's-1880's. My apologies for taking this topic in a different direction; there's certainly much to be said about Bradley & Hubbard's design contributions to the American Aesthetic Movement.

I am looking at a pair of brass sconces with mirrors to purchase.  They have dolphins on the top and two candle holders with prisms. They are unmarked but are solid brass.  Does anyone have any helpful information on identification of them.  It is not that important to me that they are Bradley and Hubbard.  I am just afraid of overpaying.  If they are not Bradley and Hubbard can anyone tell me what is a fair price for such items.  It is a pair of sconces.  There is a tiny crack in the upper right hand corner of one of the mirrors.  I appreciate any help.  I looked at another set of sconces that are a little more brilliant than these in color and have 3 holders with prisms and for them the price is $495 and this is out of my price range for purchasing this item.  I want them for my dining room and while I want them to be nice, I am not into putting that amount in to a pair of sconces.  Thanks again, and hope to hear from you.  I need help by tomorrow.

K.L.

K.L.,

A picture is worth a thousand words but since you must know before tomorrow, lets analyze the information you provided: first, these mirrored sconces are NOT Bradley & Hubbard. Ok, but depending on the maker, style, and year they were made they could be more valuable than many of B & H's pieces. I'm going to assume they are not unique but standard quality for the day. However, you mentioned a crack in one of the mirrors. There's cracks and then there's chips. While cracks tend to get worse over time, chips usually do not. What kind of mirrors? Beveled edged or flat edged? Shine a strong flashlight at the mirror-do you see thousands of little of tiny specks of light reflected? If so, you may have a "diamond dust" mirror which some high-end makers used until the 1880's and they are generally more valuable. A very tiny mirror chip that is barely noticable would not affect the price much but anything you notice at first glance would.

You said a better version of these sconces are priced at $495 but they not in your price range. Is the seller giving you any clues about pricing? Try to get the seller to quote a price and then, if you really want them, perhaps try to offer 10-15% less. If the seller is asking $400 for the pair, then it is unlikely he or she would accept less than $330-375 for them. If the seller is unwilling to make a quote, then simply low-ball your offer ($50-100) and see if you can get a counter-offer. Sometimes you get very lucky and the items are yours for the low-ball amount. Other times, not. Without a photo to better see what you are talking about, that's about the best advice I can give you. Good luck!

I'd love to have an example of this stunning Aethetic mirror, but this eBay seller's BIN price is optimistic, to say the least: 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220601802114&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

"WOW" indeed. The mirror is a not-very-skillful replacement, for one thing, and I have to say that where the seller sees "FANTASTIC COLOUR AND PATINA," I see something closer to corrosion. That said, this is the ONLY example of this pattern (one of my favorites from the Brass Menagerie catalogue) I've ever seen on eBay, so maybe somebody will bite. 

I want to thank you for the input on the dolphin mirrored sconces.  I am bidding on them on e-bay.  I was and am unsure if it is okay to post the number of the item etc.  The crack is tiny and up in the right hand corner.  I had to really look at the picture to find it.  I figure they are from the early 1900's, maybe up to the 30's.  After reading some posts here on victorian I thought perhaps they might be B & H.  Was unsure, and if they were they were unmarked.  The other sconces are higher end but very similiar, just of course more magnificent with the three candle holders and more prisms, but the ones I am bidding on have places for more prisms, they woman just put four on them so when they are fully loaded with prisms they would of course I think be more impressive.  Let me know if I give you the e-bay number if you would look at them and if I can't give it here maybe i couuld privately mail it to you.  The bidding ends on Sunday and I'm going to be tied up with Mother's day but maybe able to monitor the bidding from daughter's laptop at her house.  Like I said and I feel I can share, I love victorian things, and even if this is not a truely "genuine" victorian era it is still in the style I like.  I wanted a pair for my dining room.  And since this is a splurge item I want to get what I want withint my price budget.  OH and on the ones that are 495 she wouldn't take less than 430 for them.  and that didn't include 35 on shipping.  I hope to hear back from you.

Karen

Hello Stever:

Here is the e-bay number ...250626078355

The bid is low right now but it can take off quick.  I lost a pair of sconces I wanted last weekend in the last 5 seconds by $2.50.  made me sick. 

I really like these much better.  If you see this and have a moment take a look and tell me if you think they are pretty nice and about what you think I should make my limit on them.

This is a great forum.  I have victorian parlor chairs and my next item on my want list is a medallion back sofa or love seat. 

Hope to hear back from you on the item.  Thanks a bunch

Karen

Karen,

Thanks for the item reference. The first thing noted is a definite crack in the upper right hand corner of one mirror. I also seem to see some oxidation to the silvering on both mirrors. As the seller states, a replacement mirror can be easily bought for the cracked example. Given that the mirrors are flat edged rather than beveled, the crack should not affect the value much. My first impression upon seeing the mirrors was they could be reproductions because the crispness usually seen in early examples is not readily evident here. (and of course, someone could even take an old mirror and cut pieces off of it to make a newer piece look old) However, the more I looked at the Dolphin adorned crest, it seemed a bit too crisp and sharp to be a newer reproduction, so for now, I'll assume they are old. As for dating, to me the stylized Urn and Dolphins suggest (1820's-1830's) English Regency, Neo-Georgian, or even a hint of English Rococo style. I could also accept that they are from a European origin and as you suggested, could even be historical "Revival" pieces from the 1920's or 1930's. And that is merely a guess and a not very well educated one, so again, I recommend buying them because you like them rather than because they might be rare and valuable. (which, with research, it might be possible to identify period and value) They are quite distinctive and assuming they are not reproductions, an interior decorator would probably be willing to pay a couple of hundred dollars or more for them if deemed suitable for a client. Good Luck!
John-Vintrest (Vintage Restorations)

Aesthete,

Nice Mirror! I totally concur with you that what the seller is calling "Great Patina" seems to be verdigris oxidation from dampness. (maybe it was stored in a musty basement or attic?) While exterior architectural copper with verdigris looks charming I would not want a mirror frame of this quality with the same. If cleaned, the oxidized spots might leave behind a hole in the metal, not a good thing.

I think perhaps it is appropriate to add here that if we are open and honest about pieces we are bidding on then it is reasonable to expect that others will respect us enough to not bid against us on the same item. In my humble opinion, it is somewhat unethical and disingenous to use information provided by others in relative confidence to then go and bid against them. As the saying goes, let your conscience be your guide.

Of course, if it is something you've keenly wanted and searched for dilligently without success for many. many, years and believe this could be your one and only chance...then at least be honest enough to say so and may be highest bidder win. (you won't have many collector friends if you do that very often) I can say this without hesitation because I already have way too many old mirrors, so no chance of me bidding on any more. (actually think I should get rid of some) Good Luck, hope you win!

Greetings to all----   

I have not been active on this site for a bit and alot of posts have been made which I feel compelled to add my two cents! So... here goes.

Karen:
John-Vintrest gave good advice to you regarding your "B&H" mirrors. First, I agree they are not B&H. second, I am very certain they are reproductions and unless you do not care, I would say pass. The casting is poor and when one examines the "cut-out" areas you will see alot of residual casting materials which were not cleaned off/or finished. I am not a gambler, but I am just about willing to bet a weeks paycheck on the fact that they are modern reproductions.

Re:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220601802114&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

This mirror is different from the Brass Menagerie mirror in that: 1) It is not pierced cut, 2) It does not have a sconce and 3) I believe it's mirror is not original. The mirror is being held into place by a wooden frame which was poorly constructed as the mitre does not even fit
appropriately in the corners. Note the uneven sides? Although it does appear to be original, I would have no interest, even if the price were better, unless I were able to see more pictures.

Finally--- how about this sconce? Brass / believe it to possible be English(?)

stever

Karen--

Check out this mirror. It is same but a bit smaller
and MOST LIKELY cast iron. Look at the design definition. It is much
better casting then the pair listed. This should give
you a good comparison. The description states pot metal
but this is doubtful. Ask the seller if the item sticks to a magnet
if you are interested. If it is iron it will stick.

http://cgi.ebay.com/BRASS-WALL-MIRROR-W-CANDLE-HOLDERS-BRADLEY-HUBBARD-/200417295661?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Antiques_Decorative_Arts&hash=item2ea9cd3d2d

stever

Vintrest,

I'm more than a little puzzled by your response to my posting about the aesthetic mirror currently on eBay. I'm sorry if I gave the impression, to you or anybody else, that I was interested in the mirror, other than as an interesting -- and fairly uncommon -- example of the style, and an equally interesting example of optimistic pricing by a seller. I have certainly never "used information provided by others in relative confidence to then go and bid against them," and frankly have no idea how you think this might apply to my original post. All other issues aside, I don't "bid against" anybody on eBay: I bid once, at the last second or not at all; and above all, I would never advertise my serious interest in an object on eBay by posting about it on this site!

John and Stever:

John you think they sconces are not reproductions and that they might be dated back to 1820 or 1830 but that they might be historical revival up to the 1930's.  And Stever you are sure they are reproductions.  If they do not go up in cost, then I wouldn't feel I had made a bad investment in either case.  The bid may jump tomorrow as it closes, as did the ones I lost last weekend that I was so disappointed on.  While the age of them doesn't matter to me I would very much like them to be authentic and not modern day reproductions, just because I have wanted a pair for along time and it would be a matter of principle ;)  The best thing I can do is write to the seller and ask her to preform the magnet test to see if they are indeed brass or metal.  then if they are brass, what would you advice be then????  I suppose if they are reproductions they are worth $50.  I have looked at the "other" sconce Stever that you sent and it looks just like the ones I am bidding on.  So you would say that this one is authentic even though it is not solid brass?  Whew I really don't know what to do and now that I'm not sure I want them, it will be my luck to be the winning bidder.

John and Stever:

Check out these item numbers on e-bay and tell me what you think about them. I am including the ones I liked so much but felt I couldn't afford:

Item #220599763131

Item #390192583958

Item #360257225784

Got a reply from the seller of the sconces.  Magnet did not stick, so they are solid brass, she said she got them from an estate sale.  She said the back is tin plated and that she feels they are from the 30's or the 40's and that they hang with a very heavy piece of string.  She has been very nice and responded to my numerous questions with extreme patience ;)    If I win them I do and if I don't...well there will always be another pair, maybe ones I like even better.  Wish I could afford the others I told you all about.  But alas the budget doesn't allow that amount on sconces right now.  As I said if the bid does not go up and I were to be lucky enough to get them for $51 plus shipping then that is less than buying a reproduction pair which start at at least $65 for one sconce.  I will look for maybe responses from you in the morning.  Again I think this forum is great and I will be reading all the time to increase my knowledge.  I have been an avid collector of antiques of different kinds for sometime and my knowledge of depression glass is extensive but when it comes to these types of pieces I'm sure I am not alone when "the I've been fooled" statement come around.  I even saw and expert on  Antique Roadshow that had been "fooled" by an item and he had the fortitude to admit it  ;D.  Thanks for the help.  Will look for replies with interest. 

K.

Hi Karen---

Sometimes to many perspectives...doesn't help!

My thoughts were only an attempt to help. We all see
differently based on our experiences and "eyes." I see
poor casting where others may not. My reference to
type of metal was related to the ebay lot I sent of the
single sconce where the seller stated "pot-metal."
It does appear the two you are bidding on
are indeed brass. My thoughts? If you like them
and the price is right, then bid and good luck!

As far as bidding against others in this forum?
I believe John's methodology is sound. I too do not
bid until 2-3 seconds and at the maximum I am willing
to pay. This way there are no last minute rash decisions.
One either buys at a price that is ok or they don't buy
at an inflated price. Everyone needs to remember
that an auction is just a competitive event to buy.
Bidding is much like playing cards. Does the card player
disclose his hand? No, not until the outcome has been
decided.

stever

Aesthete,
Alas, I was afraid sharing a personal opinion could lead to a misunderstanding. If it now means anything, I was referring specifically to Karen who seemed reluctant to give information about the mirror she was bidding on-perhaps assuming that by posting the item number here she might invite unwanted bidding competition. My message was a rather feeble attempt to reassure her we were "nice folks" here and by sharing the item number she had nothing to worry about. In no way was I suggesting that you or anyone else here had or even would violate some unwritten rule about bidding etiquette. If you took my words as criticism, I apologize, and will be more cautious about expressing my opinions in the future. To say anything else might invite further misunderstanding, so I'll leave it at that.

John

To John and Stever:

I appreciate both of your help. I asked for opinions and wanted honesty above all.  I wasn't  sure about posting an e-bay item for sale here and if it was "okay".  Sometimes you can get yourself in a world of trouble.  I thank you both for taking the time to even respond, as I said I am a novice at items such as this and wanted and asked for help in determining what the top price on them should be and information as to age or period etc.  I like them and did win the bidding.  Last weekend I was bidding on a pair that I was over $200 on them and now I feel that was way to much for them because I feel these are more authentic than they were.  So things turn out never like you expect.  I left home today and was gone to Atlanta all day, and just said to heck with it, if someone wants them let them have them, I wasn't going to ruin my Mother's day with looking at a computer.  But when I got home I was the winning bidder and never put in another bid from the first one.  So I am okay with it either way.  I feel like for $51 you couldn't go wrong with them.  Anything today for your home will cost that even if it came off the assembly line yesterday ;D    The woman selling thenm bought them at an estate sale.  I figure they came from somewhere in the 1930's or 40's.  That is okay with me.  I wanted them to fit the decor in my dining room and I feel they will be and if I get tired of them and something better comes along then I bet I can get my money back out of them on craigs list locally.  I HOPE that I wasn't a problem.  And I didn't know that the post about people bidding on an item was intended for me.  But it was helpful to know that I could expect honor on the forum and that someone doesn't go and bid on something another person wants.  Anyway thanks again and I enjoy the forum and all ya'lls knowledge. 
Karen

Oh and Stever, please don't take it that I was questioning your opinion.  I was trying to weight all the information and make a decision if I wanted to keep on bidding on these or let them go if the bidding went "alot" higher.  Thanks for all the help.  Just knowing they are solid brass ...I know they were worth $50 so I'm okay.  Now if I were to have been paying hundreds of dollars for them and thought they were a modern reproduction then I would have been burned (ouch).  Hope you all had a nice day and that you Mom's are still with you and you were able to at least talk to them. 

Have a good week.
Karen

Karen,

Congratulations and a belated Happy Mother's Day. I think you got a very nice deal on these and as you said, you certainly couldn't buy them for less at any home decor outlet. If they turn out to be very old, then that just makes the purchase even sweeter but either way, you made a good buy. Once you get them set up with prisms and on the wall, it would be nice to see how they fit in. Again, no criticism was intentionally directed towards anyone and I do think those folks who post regularly here are nice, knowledgeable people who have a passion for the things they write about.
John-Vintrest
Attached: A "Happy Mother's Day" showing some of our antique roses in full bloom right now. Our home dates back to 1889 and these roses are very old but can't say if they date from the earliest days or not-they bloom but once a year and then go dormant for another 11 and 1/2 months.

Beautiful roses John!!  Appreciate your e-mail.  I will message you when the items arrive and if I can figure out how to put a picture here I will of the hanging on the wall.  We had a nice day yesterday.  Hope you did too.  Got out to the High Museum in Atlanta and saw the auto exhibition of the world's rarest cars.  The Duesenberg 1936 was my favorite and owned by Clarke Gable.  Saw today that a car like we saw out there yesterday went to an anonymous buyer for 36 million.  All 18 cars were just awesome.  I don't know where you live.  I live about 80 miles from Atlanta, N.E.  Glad I made your acquaintance.

Karen

Karen,
Thanks for the kind words. My spouse (an MRI Tech) and I live in Fort Worth, TX in a house built in 1889. Our home is on the market (has been for almost a year) and when and if it sells, I hope to relocate to Pennsylvania to be closer to sources of antiques. We have visited Ohio and Pennsylvania several times in the past few years and found several interesting places to potentially relocate to. However, the real estate market here is slow and even more so for one of a kind historic homes. In the meantime, the best thing is patience and staying busy as well as living one day at a time. Hope the mirrors turn out to be better than expected but we already know you got a good deal.
John

Hoping to show Stever and John the sconces I bought that they helped me with a couple weeks ago.  If you can help me learn how to attach the pictures, I would love for you to see them

To attach photos, look down at the lower left hand corner at the "+additional options" feature on the message reply form. Click on it and a "browse" feature opens, click on the browse feature and select the photo you want to upload off you hard drive. To add more, click on "more attachments" and then and click on each photo as you did with the first one. When you click on the post message option, the photos should upload. No photo should be larger in file size than 500 kb so larger images should be shrunk to that size or compressed to a smaller size. I'm using Windows so if you have a Mac I'm not sure if the process is any different. Hope this helps...
John

Greetings-

It has been quite awhile since I last posted in this thread, but
over the weekend I picked up this beautiful Bradley & Hubbard
mirror which was not previously listed here. It is the same aesthetic
pattern as the the sconces and easel I previously posted and it
is simply exceptional! One wonders how many other pieces
were produced by this company and an 1880's catalogue would sure
enlighten us all. If anyone else out there has other pieces
in this pattern I'd love to see them. Thank goodness for flea
market finds!
stever

Congratulations, Stever! I've never seen this pattern of mirror frame before, although the inner band of decoration looks a bit like the top of a Bradley & Hubbard plant stand in my collection. I don't think there can be any doubt about your attribution of the piece to B&H, but is it signed?

Regards, Eric

Hello-

No, the mirror is not signed. It is the same design as your table top
(Is your table signed? Does it carry an actual patent date?) and it matches
the patents by Patitz, the pieces pictured on page one of this thread
(the first three pics) and also matches the items in Ambrosio's book.
Several of these same items carrying this design are pictured in the
Brass Menagerie and are attributed to Patitz/B&H. I think the evidence
is overwhelmingly clear, but no the B&H patent is not present.
If I could hypothesize, I would suggest that many of these pieces were made
prior to the awarding of the actual patent. Once the items began to sell briskly
the patent was garnered to protect their interest against copies.
I have seen this same mirror before on ebay (1) time and also
on Southampton's antiques website. Neither of these two mirrors were
marked. It is interesting to note that on the backside the only
hanging mount is positioned in order for the mirror to be hung
on the diagonal. A very aesthetically pleasing look!
stever

Hi from a new member, and an FYI for those looking for a copy;  I got my copy of Brass Menagerie at the original price from the Munson Wiliams Proctor museum gift shop several years after the exhibit ended. Might be worth a call.

Great to see so much interest in this stuff; the first piece I ever saw was included in the book, a WILD looking B&H copper and silverplate mirrored sconce (p. 38, #9). Wish I'd bought it then....