Hello everyone. Long time lurker first time poster. :)
Several times over the last year a dining set was posted on an auction site (the big e). It is attributed to Horner, but after staring at those photos for hours on end it just doesn't seem like a Horner. My problem is with the gargoyle (see attached photo). I haven't seen a Horner piece with a tailed gargoyle. Not that I'm a Horner expert.
I wanted to open up discussion on this set and see what people's ideas are. As of today the item listing is still available with a LOT of photos (item #150309801400). One of the photos shows a Keisker & Sons, Louisville, sticker on the bottom. Do you think this is a Horner (or some other maker) piece being sold by Keisker, or an actual Keisker designed piece?
Thank you all in advance for your ideas. I look forward to this, my first discussion on this forum.
Keith
Dining Set Attribution
Archive summary
Antique Furniture Attributions thread on victorianforum.com · started January 6, 2009 by cmk8895 · 8 posts, 1 image attachment · discussion in 2009.
Hello everyone. Long time lurker first time poster. :) Several times over the last year a dining set was posted on an auction site (the big e). It is attributed to Horner, but after staring at those photos for hours on end it just doesn't seem like a Horner. My problem is…
Congrats, it appears that you sold the set and thanks for breaking the ice with your first post.
I found reference to Keisker being a reseller of Gustav Stickley, Cowan Furniture, and I'm sure many others. At one time his business was considered the largest in the state of Kentucky. I can imagine that he could have resold Horner as well.
In my opinion the commonly-used "tell-tale" Horner signs of griffins, cabachons on said griffins, high-quality carving, and ribbon stripe mahogany are not enough to attribute pieces to Horner.
Robert Mitchell, for example, employed all of the above in his pieces and sold furniture with the carving level of your set.
- See this Mitchell chair to compare the top griffin mouths to your china griffin mouths (at the top). Not exact match but similar
- I've seen Mitchell in my catalogs employ the sheaf of wheat theme that is on your set, though not in the same exact wheat carving design.
- Mitchell has chairs with lion heads on the arms very very similar to those on your chairs in one of my catalogs
- There are other similarities but I'll stop there (paw feet, griffins facing outward....)
I won't say that your set is Robert Michell. Some of the griffins in your set (it has several different design depictions) compare favorably to griffins on a labeled Horner chair that I have. I haven't even spoken of Flint, or Oriel, or other Grand Rapids makers, yet. I'll only say that decorative themes from the time repeat themselves in 100s of furniture makers from the period. Without a label or a labeled set to point to, it is very hard to use some of the above elements to identify maker.
Even more challenging is that Horner himself was a retailer who imported lots of stuff and sold it in his showroom. Some retailers labeled the work of others with their own name (Prudent Mallard did so with some Kilian Brothers pieces). Some pieces labeled Horner may not have been made in his shop but rebranded with the name. I've been told, but never confirmed, that the common Horner throne chairs that we often see (labeled and all) were bought wholesale by Horner from a "school" whose name I forget and sold as Horner.
The whole attribution thing to me is a mess and frustrates me greatly - that in many cases, it doesn't matter how much research I do, I can't nail the maker name - I only get a longer list of possibilities. That's the scary part. The more you research - the less certain you will sometimes be.
I recently visited with a 30-year dealer. He has about $2 million+ in inventory - very high end pieces. The CEO of of a $100 billion American Corporation who will remain nameless was stopping by to do some shopping. The dealer showed me an amazing "Pottier & Stymus" bedroom set that he will probably sell for $60-$80k which I know with about 80% certainty has no chance of being by P&S. It has decorative design elements that have never been seen on any P&S pieces. He saw a few of the Neo-Grec and ebonized elements and slapped on the name and is absolutely sure of it.
Sorry if I lurched onto my soapbox again on this topic as I don't intend to address it towards you - your great set just brought the topic back up for me again. I think your set very well could be a Horner, but could just as likely not be. I'm afraid I don't know how to resolve that either.
Thanks again for posting and welcome to the forum!
Extensive biography of Fred Keisker Sr. and the family can be found here.
I found reference to Keisker being a reseller of Gustav Stickley, Cowan Furniture, and I'm sure many others. At one time his business was considered the largest in the state of Kentucky. I can imagine that he could have resold Horner as well.
In my opinion the commonly-used "tell-tale" Horner signs of griffins, cabachons on said griffins, high-quality carving, and ribbon stripe mahogany are not enough to attribute pieces to Horner.
Robert Mitchell, for example, employed all of the above in his pieces and sold furniture with the carving level of your set.
- See this Mitchell chair to compare the top griffin mouths to your china griffin mouths (at the top). Not exact match but similar
- I've seen Mitchell in my catalogs employ the sheaf of wheat theme that is on your set, though not in the same exact wheat carving design.
- Mitchell has chairs with lion heads on the arms very very similar to those on your chairs in one of my catalogs
- There are other similarities but I'll stop there (paw feet, griffins facing outward....)
I won't say that your set is Robert Michell. Some of the griffins in your set (it has several different design depictions) compare favorably to griffins on a labeled Horner chair that I have. I haven't even spoken of Flint, or Oriel, or other Grand Rapids makers, yet. I'll only say that decorative themes from the time repeat themselves in 100s of furniture makers from the period. Without a label or a labeled set to point to, it is very hard to use some of the above elements to identify maker.
Even more challenging is that Horner himself was a retailer who imported lots of stuff and sold it in his showroom. Some retailers labeled the work of others with their own name (Prudent Mallard did so with some Kilian Brothers pieces). Some pieces labeled Horner may not have been made in his shop but rebranded with the name. I've been told, but never confirmed, that the common Horner throne chairs that we often see (labeled and all) were bought wholesale by Horner from a "school" whose name I forget and sold as Horner.
The whole attribution thing to me is a mess and frustrates me greatly - that in many cases, it doesn't matter how much research I do, I can't nail the maker name - I only get a longer list of possibilities. That's the scary part. The more you research - the less certain you will sometimes be.
I recently visited with a 30-year dealer. He has about $2 million+ in inventory - very high end pieces. The CEO of of a $100 billion American Corporation who will remain nameless was stopping by to do some shopping. The dealer showed me an amazing "Pottier & Stymus" bedroom set that he will probably sell for $60-$80k which I know with about 80% certainty has no chance of being by P&S. It has decorative design elements that have never been seen on any P&S pieces. He saw a few of the Neo-Grec and ebonized elements and slapped on the name and is absolutely sure of it.
Sorry if I lurched onto my soapbox again on this topic as I don't intend to address it towards you - your great set just brought the topic back up for me again. I think your set very well could be a Horner, but could just as likely not be. I'm afraid I don't know how to resolve that either.
Thanks again for posting and welcome to the forum!
Extensive biography of Fred Keisker Sr. and the family can be found here.
Would love to see the label. Can you attach a picture? I'm aware of paper Horner labels and those that look like this that Christies describes as "porcelain". Not familiar with brass original labels by Horner.
MAN O MAN O MAN, dont get me started on the "attributed to" this early in the new year, as RV says, it is a MESS.
I would add that the record price paid for an american single piece of furniture, 12.1 million in 1989 for the Brown family "block & shell" desk/bookcase, is attributed to John Goddard. The thing is though, no one knows for sure who made this piece, it could just as well have been John Townsend.
Wow. The proverbial can of worms has been opened!
Just to clarify one point that RV mentioned, I was not the seller, just interested in the piece and its value. I had bid on it several times, but it never met reserve.
RV, I can't tell you how many times I've looked at the chair that you mention and never even noticed that the heads on the chair are so similar to those on the china cabinet in the dining set. Shows how good I am at this stuff!
I always live in the vain hope that someone will have a catalogue that has the exact set in it and be able to say, "Oh yeah, that's a Mitchell, here it is," or some such. I appreciate everyone's input so far (and many thanks to RV for his detailed information on attributions).
Keith
Just to clarify one point that RV mentioned, I was not the seller, just interested in the piece and its value. I had bid on it several times, but it never met reserve.
RV, I can't tell you how many times I've looked at the chair that you mention and never even noticed that the heads on the chair are so similar to those on the china cabinet in the dining set. Shows how good I am at this stuff!
I always live in the vain hope that someone will have a catalogue that has the exact set in it and be able to say, "Oh yeah, that's a Mitchell, here it is," or some such. I appreciate everyone's input so far (and many thanks to RV for his detailed information on attributions).
Keith
Send pics to [email removed] and I'll get them posted.
The saga continues.... Check out eBay item # 370144461947.
This is the same table from the set that I mentioned above, but in oak instead of mahogany. And with a different "maker" of 'The Haverty Furn. Co.' which still exists.
An interesting twist to be sure. So it must have been resold for someone....
Also, some research on the financial side of the company revealed that it only went by "Havery Furniture Company" prior to 1889 and from 1908-1929.
Keith
This is the same table from the set that I mentioned above, but in oak instead of mahogany. And with a different "maker" of 'The Haverty Furn. Co.' which still exists.
An interesting twist to be sure. So it must have been resold for someone....
Also, some research on the financial side of the company revealed that it only went by "Havery Furniture Company" prior to 1889 and from 1908-1929.
Keith